1:03:22

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, privacy, businesses, data, understand, ai, lawyers, world, uk, career, directive, law, create, community, human rights, read, helped, data protection, regulation, happy

SPEAKERS

Debbie Reynolds, Jamal Ahmed

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me "The Data Diva". This is "The Data Diva" Talks Privacy podcast, where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know now. I have a very special guest on the show. "The King Of Data Protection", according to the BBC, Jamal Ahmed, is the Global Privacy Consultant at Kazient Privacy Experts. Welcome.

Jamal Ahmed  00:47

Thank you, Debbie. I'm so excited to be here.

Debbie Reynolds  00:50

Yeah. I also mentioned that you have a number one podcast for thriving careers with the Privacy Pros podcast. And you're the lead mentor and coach at the Privacy Pros Academy. Very good.

Jamal Ahmed  01:03

Yes, and I was fortunate enough to have you on that podcast, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the rankings that are taking us to the number-one spot.

Debbie Reynolds  01:14

So we did that a couple of months ago. And people still write me about that. They're like, oh, I talked to Jamal. And I must admit, you're probably one of the most mentioned people in the privacy community that I run across. So a lot of people say, oh, yes, ah, Jamal said this, Jamal talked about this, or, you know, like, that's really cool. Almost every couple of weeks, I have someone say, hey, I talked to him, or one thing that you do really well, and I'll let you introduce yourself too, but one thing I really admire about you? Well, there are several things I admire about you. But one thing I really admire about you that you've been able to do is that you've created such a rich community of people. So a lot of people, you know, you're able to bring a lot of people in half cross conversations with them. And, you know, you have a group that you had invited me to a lot of heavy hitters who talk about Data Privacy, data protection, and so few people have that talent to be able to create a community around what they do. But I will definitely want to have you introduce yourself and tell me how you become "The King Of Data Protection".

Jamal Ahmed  02:29

Right. Okay. Thank you, everyone. And I'm pleased to be here. My name is Jamal Ahmed, I'm based in the UK. And I am not a lawyer, I don't have a technical background. But I'm very good at what I do. And that is implementing Data Privacy solutions for businesses. And my goal is to help businesses to go beyond compliance. It's not just a tick-box exercise. So the reason we have the top tier companies coming to us, or we're going to other law firms for Data Privacy consultancies, we want to take them beyond compliance so that they can actually cultivate confidence, inspire that trust, and really make an impact. And forward-thinking businesses realize, hey, GDPR Data Privacy is not just about ticking the box. It's about more than that. How can we use these to meet our business objectives? I think we use this to build trust; how can we use this as a competitive advantage over our competitors, and that's the kind of competitors customers we work with? And the more customers I work with, the more they started asking me if I could actually empower their teams. So I was like, yeah, we definitely do that. We definitely have a training. And then I started getting lots of people messaging me on LinkedIn, even my younger brother; he was like, fed up with my career; I want to do something meaningful. So I started helping people in my own family, people in my friend circle people in my community on LinkedIn. And what I realized is, I've actually got a formula that helped me, someone, who doesn't have a legal background, someone who is not married, or someone who is not mentally, to really get into data protection and make a massive impact, and help companies do really well, with those pragmatic solutions. And I'm helping people have really good careers, too; I can actually help a lot more people. And that's what I love to do. I really love to help people be their best. I have a background in coaching and performance consulting, and neurolinguistic programming. So that whole holistic side of things I bring to the coaching that we do at the privacy problems Academy, and we don't call it training; we call it mentoring because a mentor is someone who's been where you want to get to those few steps ahead of you, and they can guide you and that's what you want to do. And that's what that whole community is all about. It's about one person helping the person who is just one step behind them pull up, the person who is in front of them will help them, and when we help each other up, they push us forward. And that's what the whole community is about. And that's probably why you see people talking about it because everyone that comes in joins a private suppose Academy. We're very selective like you can't just find the website and pay something and join. There is no website where you can join. It has to go through an application process. We make sure that people are the right community. They have the right mindset. And that's actually what led me to create the communities that you speak about that, to begin with, is that when I was going on my journey, I was so scared, I was so dejected. I didn't know which way to go. I didn't know what communities they were what they were, I was told I need a legal background. Also, I mean technical background; I was told I need certifications to prove my credibility. And it was just crazy. Like I'll share with you, I'll pull out one day when we meet again for a coffee; all of the different certification programs have been on; it took me a long time to understand that the ones I need to focus on are the ones that companies actually recommend. And something is one which led me to the becoming an official IPP trading partner. But I had to go and spend lots of time, money, and energy, which was one of the time wasted going after certifications, which I thought would help me to demonstrate credibility, but they didn't actually do anything for my career. And the more I spoke to people, the more people reached out, the more or less and so many people have similar problems. So we decided we're going to set up the Privacy Pros Academy to help people overcome the challenges that I face. So they don't have to waste one year, two years, three years, or five years, they can just pivot their careers, or they can actually accelerate their careers, overcome that self-doubt get over that impostor syndrome, and have a real mindset of where they are growing, where they know there is abundance, and just go and help businesses. And everything that I do is driven by this vision that I have. And the vision is, I want my daughter to grow up in a world where every woman, every man, and every child enjoys control over the person's information. Now, for me, to be able to achieve that vision, I have to look at all of the organizations that are processing personal information, and have to find a way to empower every organization that handles personal information to do that in a way that is open. Honest, when it comes to privacy practices. I can't do that by myself. I've tried doing that through the consultancy; it doesn't matter how big the company I work with is, it's still a drop in the ocean; what I can do is create a community of like-minded individuals. And together, we can reach out to every organization together; we can empower every organization on the planet to adopt those on his privacy practices. And that's only going to happen if I help enough people become world-class privacy professionals; they can go anywhere in the world, pick up a privacy program, and really provide those pragmatic solutions that should have been assessed. And that's the reason why you see me doing everything I'm doing.

Debbie Reynolds  07:29

You're doing a fantastic job. And I learned a lot from you. Seeing how you interact with people, I feel bad because when I see you do a comment, I was like, oh, crap, I need to comment more different things. So you remind me of that to keep that going. Two things that you mentioned I will love to chat about. One is you're talking about how you brought in your experiences from other things into privacy, which I think anyone can do. And I think it makes you more unique and not being a cookie-cutter person. And then the second thing is being a nonlawyer in data protection. I like to talk to people who were in Data Privacy or data protection before the GDPR came out. Because a lot of those people weren't lawyers, they were data people or they they have some different other type of career tracks. So tell me about those two things.

Jamal Ahmed  08:43

Okay, so first thing bringing in the differences. So look, here is the way I look at things I like to think; how can I add more value? What problems can I solve? What skills do I already have? What am I good at? Or what is my zone of genius? What can I do better than most people in the room? And that's what we call value stacking. So that's what I'm always looking to do. I'm always looking to add more value, and I focus on one thing, and when I've got that thing to a level of excellence. So that's it, but now it's time to add and focus on something else. What most people find challenging is they try and do so many things all at the same time. And they end up doing everything quite poorly or mediocre. Instead, what I want to do is do things really well. So I did the coaching that went great. But I decided that wasn't a career for me because I had people coming to me with problems. And I'm someone who wants to deal with problems. I love dealing with solutions. I want to help you be the best you can be. I want to help you unleash and unlock your potential. So although I focused on the early parts of my career, I decided it wasn't for me might be something I look back to, but the lessons that I took, those skills, and values are the first stack that I had. And then I went back into the corporate world, and I went to compliance. In fact, one of the first roles I did as a compliance and consultant as a business consultant was in the UK, I used to teach businesses about their obligations when it comes to the Data Protection Act of 1998. Actually, I was really good at doing that. So I had a great idea for that. But I wasn't focused too much on the production, I was more focused on compliance. And as I developed in my career, I started getting more and more interested in the Data Privacy side of data protection. So because things were moving so fast. So when I was growing up, like you can see behind me, I had a typewriter, right? So some people don't even know what that is. So I saw a technology going from here to hear. And when we, when I had to connect to the Internet, the first time I got access to the Internet, we have to dial up to it. And some people might remember that. And then I would connect to the Internet. But now I can just pick up my phone. And within a few seconds, that information can be anywhere in the world; there is no dialogue, there are no wires, there is nothing; it's absolutely amazing. And he also started getting scary because that's our server seeing what was happening with different data breaches and how people's data was being abused and exploited, and sold. And I was like; there has to be a better way. And around 2014 or 2015, I started reading about the GDPR, I have no idea how I came across it; I think it must have been on LinkedIn, and someone was having a conversation. And the more I started looking into it, the more fascinating I found it. And there was a part of me that was like, this is never gonna see the day, right? Like, there is no way big businesses are gonna let this happen because this is gonna be a complete game changer for them. And to my surprise, the GDPR got passed, and businesses had two years to implement it. And there weren't really that many people who understood the ins and outs and had that pragmatic solution but couldn't really go and help enterprises that deliver those cutting-edge solutions. So one of the things I found I was really good at was my background helped me to really understand people and meet them where they are. There's too many consultants, there's too many privacy lawyers who expect people to come and meet them where they are; hey, this is what the law requires you to do. This is what you have to do dot the i's and cross the T's here. But the real world doesn't work like that. You have to go and be kind to people and explain to them, Hey, I understand this is what your challenges this is what your objectives are, let's start somewhere and meet them where they are, and then bring them gradually up to where you need to bid. And so I found that that was really one of the big skills I have is being able to understand people and then lead them towards compliance or lead them towards getting them to where they need to be. So that really helped me have that personable approach, understanding their objectives, and making them feel understood, because once you make someone feel understood, they're more open to understanding what they need to do and where you need to take them. And then we're happy to be led. So all of those different skills and values that I've been able to start before I got into Data Privacy really helped me to excel in Data Privacy. And once I got into privacy, then it was just about stacking more and more skill. So anyone can have a thriving career in anything, especially Data Privacy, when you bring all of the value, when you bring your zone of genius when you focus on the things that you do. And one of the biggest questions I get from career pivots is, hey, I've spent 10 years doing this thing, and the other, I don't want to start again from the bottom. Anyone can have a thriving career in anything and doesn't just have to kill it; you can do anything you want; you just have to put your mind to it. Can you do one thing is how you do anything? You just got to break it down. And when you get yourself a role as a Data Privacy professional, it's all about recognizing, hey, there's so many soft skills, there's so many transferable skills that you already have, there's so much great stuff about you. And there's something brilliant about you that most other people don't have. And you just need to tap into what that is and find a way of creating an opportunity where you can add that value to businesses, to individuals, and to the people that you're looking to serve. So that's how I'm bringing the value of being a non-lawyer. So at the Privacy Pros Academy, most of my clients are actually lawyers. And early on in my career, I used to have a lot of challenges. So I used to get ridiculed a lot by the lawyers who were trying to negotiate with me though, who were in the meeting rooms with boardrooms with who would not take me seriously because I wasn't a lawyer there was like, Well, you're not a lawyer. So what do you know? And the more we had meetings, the more we spoke, and the more I got buying from the executives that the lawyers were able to do. They realized, hang on a minute, there's something about this guy; he knows his stuff. He knows what we need to do, but he's getting bind, which we're struggling with. What is it that we're struggling with that this guy is actually doing really well? And it's actually being able to talk to people in a language they understand. The challenge with lawyers is that they spend so much time in as laws, and it's no fault of their own. It's not their fault. That's what they're paid to do. That's their job, and When they speak, he told legalese. It's all jargon. It's all regurgitating articles, the business, the executives, the people on the call center, the people driving the vans; they don't care what the article number says or how well you've memorized it; they can get that for free, they can just Google that. What they want to know is, what does that mean to me? What do I need to do about it? Okay, so you've got the article, something that talks about something? What's that got to do with the price of bread? I want to know what that means for me, and what can I do. What can I do, and this thing I want to do cannot do it or not. And that's what we need to do is we need to speak to people in a language they understand. But we need to go through what I call the C five methodology. It all starts with clarity. If there is no clarity in what you're saying, if there is no clarity in people understanding what they do, there's no confidence. And when there's no confidence, people don't do anything. If I don't understand what I need to do, I'm not confident in what I have to do, I'm just gonna sit here, and I'm not going to do anything about it. Because I don't know what to do. So the first thing to do is give people clarity. And that comes from being able to speak in a language they understand; then you create confidence. Now people know what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. And when you create clarity and confidence, credibility comes along with it. And once you have those three things, the next thing you need to do is to be able to prove credibility or prove credentials and that comes through delivering those pragmatic world-class solutions. And finally, you need to create a strong community around you. And that community doesn't have to be an external community; it could be a community that you're gonna join, it might even be just your colleagues at work. It might be as a privacy professional, as a practice manager, put some privacy champions; it might be you create a steering committee. But at the Privacy Pros Academy, what we've done is we've created the Privacy Pros Network, where we've got people from all over the world coming together, who share that same vision and have that same passion, and who just want to be the best at what they do. And that's been really powerful. And then the other community you mentioned that we, which you're also part of, is that privacy pros community that we haven't signaled where I've reached out to all of the people in the industry who inspire me, people like yourself, people like Jules Polonetsky and all the brilliant minds because I want to learn from them. And essentially, how can I learn from other people? And how can I leverage lessons I don't have? How can I leverage the experience I don't have? How can I leverage the time that I don't have? How can I leverage industry knowledge I don't have? The only way to do that is to actually go and offer value to people who are already doing that. So then they can give me some value back. But when I have a question, there's someone to do that. And they're all like-minded people. And that's the thing that I love most about our community there is everybody wants for you, not from you. Everyone's happy to share, everyone's happy to give the reason for this scarcity mindset, I need to keep this knowledge to myself, it's hey, I've come across this, I want to share this, and people are really open to asking questions. Because what you realize is early on, people want to feel like they need to look smart in their careers. So they will go and get as many letters of alphabet soup off at the name as they can, and they will regurgitate as much legal text as they can because they believe they have this false sense of security that they can hide behind that. And it demonstrates credibility. The more you mature through your career, the more you mature in your understanding, and the more you realize it's okay to not know everything. And actually, the more open you are saying, I don't know about this, can you help me with this, the more value you can bring because you're now identifying where you have the gaps, and you're filling those gaps, and you're actually giving other people an opportunity to consolidate their understanding by teaching you. And that's why I love creating those communities. The problem was when I was on my journey of the career of coming to this career, I found so many WhatsApp communities, Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups, and Slack channels, and they all had this mentality that I didn't like it was how can we get? What rate can we attract? How much should we charge for this project? What is the cheapest way to go and pass an exam? Oh, is there somewhere I can just buy practice answers and just memorize the answers for the composite exam? And all these people are concerned with is what they could they get and how smart they look. And what was in it for them? It was a very short-term mentality. There was no investment. Is it really understanding there was no growth mindset, there was no conviction. Like, we care about people's rights. Like we understand that when we go and work with the business, it could impact what they're doing with hundreds,  thousands, if not millions of people. Like there was no mention of caring about people's rights. And I was like, I don't feel comfortable here. I feel this is like a fraudulent community. Is this all about just making as much money as you can by going and selling templates? That's not me. That's not what I'm about. And so I went on a quest, and so as you know, I can't find my community. So I'm gonna go and create my own tribe. And that's what I did. I created one tribe of the best people in the industry, which is where you are from. And then I created that tribe of people who are looking to learn, who are looking to grow, who are looking to become the best, and on their journey. And that's why we have the Privacy Pros Academy. And then we've got this exclusive community on Signal as well.

Debbie Reynolds  20:26

Very good, thank you for that. I'm happy to be a part of that community. And it was really sweet of you to write me, happy to be in it. One thing about privacy that I find, and you tell me if you agree or not, I find that unless they're new, and they don't know anything, I think a lot of privacy people are very open. I don't feel there is a competitive thing. So I don't feel like we're, you know, just like us. We're here on the podcast together. Both of us have our own businesses. Both of us have our own podcasts; we have our own thing that we do. But we like to cross-talk; we like to talk with one another. We like to share information. That's how I found privacy. But tell me your thoughts about that.

Jamal Ahmed  21:24

Yeah, so what you're sharing is true. But the opposite is also true. It's like any industry; you have people at both ends of the spectrum. And there is a vigorous piece that we have here we say birds of a feather flock together. So it's because you are open. It's because you are friendly. It's because you love to share, and you've attracted similar people around you. And the people who are interacting with you are the people that you're attracting are attracted by that because they're very similar. However, if you want to take a step back, and if you want to try and join the industry now, what you'll see is there's people at both ends of the spectrum. So people who have this really fixed mindset, who have this scarcity mindset that, oh, there's only so many jobs, there's obviously one project, and if I help someone else, or if I tell someone else that I won't get this job, I hear the most ridiculous things I go on LinkedIn ones is, can you stop training people because they're going to be taking all our jobs? Are you not scared? When you go, when you bring your competitors on your podcast, that they're going to be taking your customer? Oh, my goodness, it's all a scarcity mindset. It's all just like, people need to understand; you can choose to believe that, or you can choose to believe the opposite. And I believe there are more than enough customers; there are more than enough clients; there are more than enough people that I can add value to you until I retire and me on, so I'm not worried about that. That's not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about can I go to bed every night feeling that, you know, I've made the world a better place today. Can I go to bed every night thinking, you know, I've helped at least one person today? Can I go to the end of my career or to the end of my life and say, You know what, I couldn't change the world. But at least I changed one person's. And if I can say that, then you know I'm alright. I'm quite happy and quite fulfilled with that. But if I can do that for 10 people, 100 people, 1000 people, 10,000 people, a million people, then I'll be quite happy. And over the course of my career. I'm so fortunate and grateful that not only have I been able to impact hundreds of people in terms of their career go from, like, you've probably heard of that. But people go from being Uber drivers to becoming Data Privacy managers and multinational companies. I've helped people change their careers from being on supermarket stocking shelves to having a data protection Support Officer role. I've helped people develop confidence, I've helped people really transform their lives and escape toxic environments to now where they're actually thriving. And when I sweat those things that really fulfill me, that makes me feel great about what I do. And I want to do more of that. And it's not just people around me; it's people from all over the world that I've been able to help. And the strangest thing is there's 120 IEP training partners, right, and we're just one of those. There's people across the world. There's people in America who will wake up at 2 am to join me in my time zone because they love the energy that we bring. They've seen the results that we get for people, and they don't want to go anywhere else. And a lot of these people are because they've been bitten by the wrong kind of mindset. One of the biggest problems I have and one of the biggest challenges with actual training is there is too many training providers who see it as a conveyor belt. And what they try to do is get as many seats as they can, on chairs, hire a contractor or a lawyer in a black suit or a dark suit, and come and bore you to death by reading some slides out and minutes, minutes away for two days. And that's why some of these training programs have such a bad reputation or was like, I don't bother with them. It's because that's been the experience for a lot of people. And I was like, you know what I experienced that I suffered that I can't believe you're wasting two days; I could have just watched the videos or five; training has to be engaging, it has to be transformative. And that's why I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go and do it myself. And that's why we kind of created the Academy to help people to really get confidence, get that clarity, so they can go and feel confident about operationalizing privacy. And the biggest challenge for me was how I help people not only be able to do that from a technical level but also bring in the soft skills also have the mindset so they can go and add more value and they want to help people because they see the bigger picture. And they're really passionate about making sure everyone has control over their person.

Debbie Reynolds  25:54

Very good. I want to know what's happening in the world today that concerns you around privacy, something that you see you're like; I don't like the direction that this is going in.

Jamal Ahmed  26:09

That's a very good question. I have a big problem with the direction the UK is going in, in terms of privacy, in terms of general human rights. So we left the European Union because we wanted more control. And the current government we have right now they're also thinking of getting rid of a lot of those human rights. obligations for governments that Europe and the European Union work so hard to achieve. And one of the stories that really appalled me was when our Home Secretary decided that they're gonna send immigrants on a plane and send them to another part of the world. They think that it's okay to do that. Because these immigrants are second-class citizens, or they don't have the same human rights, or there is some kind of human rights exemption. And I was actually very pleased with the outcome this week, to say that actually, you can't rely on that and human rights, and these privacy rights of these immigrants are not actually up for negotiation. And you have to treat them with the respect and dignity that you would anyone else. So this is the thing that's concerning me is moving away from what we've been working so hard to establish with Europe all this time and just watering away those human rights just because of whatever agenda the government might have. It is not there to serve the population; it is not there to serve the great British public. And that really concerns me, that really concerns me, because we've seen two, three home secretaries now, and they just don't get human rights. They don't value human rights. And they're starting to row eroding those civil liberties. And that was sort of really concerning me. And what they have been trying to do is use things like COVID and the pandemic to wash away those rights. And that's what concerns me right now is the state of the United Kingdom, the state of civil liberties, and how those are trying, or how the government is trying to erode those. They were trying to get away with the UK GDPR and bringing the data protection bill. Why? Why would you do that? Like, if that gives a great level of protection if countries all around the world are trying to change or introduce new legislation to meet that kind of standard, which is derived from the OECD guidelines anyway, right? Why would we try to move in the other direction? Even the United States? Yes, we can't. You can't agree on a Federal-wide one right now. But States are taking responsibility and saying, Hey, we want to bring in some kind of privacy legislation. We want to make sure that our citizens are protected. If the whole world is moving in one direction, why is the UK government trying to move in the opposite direction? It doesn't actually make any sense. And I'm scared that once it's like a domino effect, once you knock over the first domino, what's the next route that you're going, you're at? What's the next step? And the reason I really got into privacy is for me, privacy is such a fundamental right, because when you impact someone's right to privacy, you automatically start impacting the other rights as well. So let's say, for example, I want to go to a protest, if I know that they're going to come with facial recognition cameras, then it's going to impact on that right that I have to freedom of expression. If I know I'm being monitored, then it's going to impact which buildings I go to and don't go to, who I actually go and spend time with and don't spend time with. So it starts impacting everything. And that's why privacy is so important to me, and that's why I'm so passionate, and I can do this for like 18 hours a day. And you know, not get bored and not get exhausted.

Debbie Reynolds  29:53

They're concerned as well around what's happening in the UK. I have clients there and obviously In the EU, and I was relieved, after Brexit, that the UK got adequacy because if not, that would have been crazy. But moving away from some of those foundational principles, you know, we'll just make things more difficult for people everywhere because now you have to think about two sets of things. Like, for me, I was always happy with Europe because even though GDPR, for example, is very expansive and very comprehensive. It's not like the US, where we have 50 data breach laws, so I was really happy about that. So moving away from that, and my view is, countries should have their own things that they're thinking about, things that they're concerned about. And I don't think that anyone is going to say that the UK has to be exactly like the EU, but like you said, the political climate now, let's be contrarian. Let's do the opposite. That's almost like when a teenager when they're trying to act out with their parents; they want to do like the opposite of what everybody else is doing. So it's kind of crazy.

Jamal Ahmed  31:30

Yeah, I agree. And look, here's the thing, one of the biggest penalties to businesses is operational disruption. And every time you make a change, that's operational disruption is almost as bad as finally business, it's almost as bad as reputational damage. And businesses are just getting their heads around all of the international data transfer agreements as a result of Brexit and Brexit with all the deadlines now. And now you're asking them to go and make some changes again, so they can recombine with all the other stuff, plus this new law that's about to come in. And then there's also petitions from the back benches of joining back to the European Union. So it couldn't be that we ended up back in with GDPR. Anyway. So it's like just giving businesses a break; there are no benefits to introducing a new law. Businesses have had GDPR since 2016, and they've had to be compliant since 2018. We don't have a problem with that. We know what we're doing. Leave us alone on that. What we are more concerned about is what's happening with artificial intelligence. What's happening with innovative technologies? And what are you planning to do about that? And one of the things that I will actually say I'm pleased about on the UK side is I'll be looking at the kind of approach that they want to take to AI compared to Europe; the European AI is quite prescriptive, right. And it's like, you can do this, and you can't do that. And this is how things have to be done. Whereas the UK approach to AI is a little bit more like GDPR. It's all about principles. And personally, I prefer a principled approach. Because when you can be prescriptive, you can't foresee every situation, you can't foresee every industry, you can't foresee every business, what you can only foresee is the limited things that you have knowledge of, or the limited people that people around the table have knowledge of what's going to happen one year from now, six months from now, two years from now, we have no idea. So that principled approach actually helps businesses to innovate and grow. And I want to say that I want to see businesses finding innovative ways of really using AI to improve the quality of life of people around the world. And I really believe we can do that. So I think a principled approach is a lot stronger, or is a lot more allows a lot more freedom to innovate and really delve into those benefits. And that prescriptive approach, but I do understand some of the concerns around not knowing something, the fear of not knowing something, of why they would want to take that prescriptive approach in Europe. So yeah, there's some great things about the UK that are concerning me. And there's also some sort of there's some not-so-great things about the UK that are concerning me in terms of what we're doing with human rights. But when it comes to AI and innovation, then yes, I'm very happy with the approach our government has taken in Europe; the prescriptive approach, they might see as a necessary evil; I think a more GDPR approach and principles would actually probably be better. What are your thoughts on that, Debbie?

Debbie Reynolds  34:19

Oh, look at you turn it around on me. I think a lot of laws in the US are very prescriptive. And I think that's why it's hard for us to create laws, because some people want you to say put a button on your website that says this, as opposed to tying your data to a purpose. So I think having those more broad strokes, for me, I think it makes the law not get old because it is up to you in that timeframe to be able to interpret what that is. And I do like what the UK is doing with it their AI push because, you know, we don't know what the future holds; we don't know what AI is going to look like. And trying to pin it down to maybe what we see today may make the law age in ways that we don't like. So being able to talk about those principles, and the best way, in my view, if you're going to go with creating legislation around this, if you created around the rights of humans, you really can't go wrong because the idea is that you don't want to harm. So you want businesses to do what it takes to they can do business, but they can't do it in a way that's harmful to individuals.

Jamal Ahmed  35:49

I completely agree with that approach. Great stuff.

Debbie Reynolds  35:55

So first, on AI, I want to turn to your thoughts about ChatGPT and the AI arms race happening now. Everyone wants to create bots and do stuff. So what are your thoughts?

Jamal Ahmed  36:09

Well, first of all, I think it's super fascinating. And it's super exciting. Like I was playing around with ChatGPT when it first came out, I was like, wow, this is bonkers. This is crazy. Right? The challenge is that we have a soulless understanding of how it actually works in what is actually going on with the data that we feed into it, which means that we have to treat it with a pinch of salt. So we have to be very careful when it comes to actually plugging in any personal information to stay far, far away from it; when it comes to plugging in a business confidential data and intellectual property, stay far, far away from that we have no idea what those risks are. And the last thing you want to do is expose that and share that with anyone who's got access; I think they had already 100 million or 400 million users in the first few months; it's the fastest-growing thing ever. But when you look at the benefits of what it can do, I think it's fascinating, when you look at how it can help businesses to really understand their customers deliver more value, understand the resonance of their customers, and what's going on and all of the other great stuff is awesome. Now, there are a lot of people that are scared that AI is gonna come and replace them, and they don't get a job. That is true; there will be a lot of people whose jobs will no longer exist because of AI. But we shouldn't be scared about that. We should get excited. It's a little bit like in the industrial age, where people were doing things manually, then machinery came in and replace people. But there were still jobs for people who just need to understand how to add more value; there will always be change. And what we want to be looking at is not staying stagnant or seeking. How can we get ahead? How can we use this AI to add value? What is the role of doing now? How can I use AI to enhance that? How can I use AI to make what I'm doing more valuable? And amplify that and make it 10 times better? And if I'm doing something that couldn't be replaced by AI? Well, then, how do I leverage everything I already have to take my career to take my value add to the business to society to the next level. So it's all about being ready and being open to changes and having that growth mindset. So it doesn't matter what comes along. I'm going to use that to enhance and leverage. So that's where I am with that. From a Data Privacy point of view, like we said, we're going on; we don't know sometimes if we're speaking to a human or a bot. AI is getting so good that it's getting hard to differentiate. And the other problem is if people are using AI to start creating lots of content, it's all going to become a little bit boring, and it isn't like you don't want to go to a museum or an art gallery. And everything looks and feels the same. You wanna go up and down. You want to see differences. You want to be struck one moment. You want to be emotive for another moment. You want to be excited for another moment. And that is the main concern I have the AI. Is it going to kill off creativity? Is it going to take away that artistic flair that only a person can bring? As long as we can make sure that we're not losing talent and we're not killing off people's creativity because everyone just typing in instructions, then I'm quite happy with it. And it helped creative people become more creative. absolutely bonkers. So I've seen people creating amazing pieces of art by putting instructions into AI. So there is so much opportunity, and it can only leverage and enhance people's whatever. So here's the thing, AI is a tool. I don't think it's good, and I don't think it's bad. Just like money is a tool. It's like a hammer is a tool. The tool in the right person's hand can really amplify whatever energy they provide. So if I am greedy, if I am evil that when you if I have billions of dollars, I will be greeted evil things with that. If I am generous, if I am crying, if I am supportive, if I want to help people, then when you give me millions of pounds in my hands, I will find ways of benefiting so many people with impairment; it's the same with AI, it's a tool, it will only amplify the energy that person brings into it or puts into it. So what we want to focus on is how we create ethical standards of what we believe is acceptable in a democratic society. Not, hey, these are my values; I want everyone to have those values. But there has to be some level of. Obviously, this is acceptable, and this isn't. So for example, we say it's not acceptable to commit violence against somebody else, like physically. So now we need to take that same ideology of what is acceptable in society and bring it into what is acceptable and what is acceptable with AI. And I think there'll be some fascinating challenges.

Debbie Reynolds  40:44

Yeah, I'll put you on the spot here. Recently, there was a big letter that came out with some luminaries. Over 1000 people have signed this letter saying that we need to stop working on large language models for six months. What are your thoughts about that?

Jamal Ahmed  41:05

Yeah, so I don't support that.

Debbie Reynolds  41:09

No, me either.

Jamal Ahmed  41:10

I don't support that. They're saying, hey, we want to stop time. Because we're scared of what we don't know, that's life. That's always been life. Go back to when we first were put on this earth. And we were cave people. We didn't know what that side of the cave did. We say, hey, let's sit in the cave for six months and stuff and not move and not grow and not do anything while we figure out what's going on there. Oh, absolutely, that makes no sense. To me, that kind of thinking. That is what we call a scarcity mindset. That is what we call a fixed mindset. We shouldn't be looking to limit anyone in any way unless they're doing something that's causing harm to other people. Outside of that, I believe everyone should have the freedom to go and do what they want to do. Why should we stop people from innovating and developing and just freeze time for six months? What is the benefit of that? Oh, let the law catch up. No, we need the lawyers; we need the regulators. We need the people who are making these decisions to up their game and get six months in, not stop innovators, people who are bringing value to the world and say, Hey, don't do anything for six months. So yeah, completely against that motion.

Debbie Reynolds  42:18

Yes. Bonkers to me as I was thinking about it. But instead of writing a letter, write some checks. You know, if you want to do this research, you know, those people combined, I'm sure they can add a couple of billion dollars to a company to actually do this research. And they're really concerned about it, but write a letter. Anybody could do that. I could write a letter.

Jamal Ahmed  42:42

Yeah definitely.

Debbie Reynolds  42:49

It just made me laugh. I think almost letters, like, stop innovating and doing amazing things for six months so that I can catch up and create a new product for six months that'll kick compete with you basically,

Jamal Ahmed  43:04

Exactly. Now you need to take responsibility and find a way of catching up for the six months that you've missed. And actually get ahead. At problem. That's not an innovation. That's not where we stopped people.

Debbie Reynolds  43:18

I want to chat a bit about your book, The Easy Peasy GDPR Guide.

Jamal Ahmed  43:26

Yeah. Easy Peasy Guide To The GDPR. Yes.

Debbie Reynolds  43:30

So the book is amazing. You let me see a copy of it. You actually wrote a comment about the book that I think is great. One thing about the GDPR when came out when the EU was working on it; I was reading proposals when it first came out, and I read the whole thing. A lot of people don't read, do they like a lot of people don't read, you know, a couple of hundred pages? I read the whole thing. I really liked it. I'm a boring, geeky person like that. But I think one thing, and I think the reason why your book is really important, is because some people who saw the GDPR were overwhelmed, and they didn't know where to go or what to do. And so being able to explain it in an easy way. I think that that shows your genius, being able to do that. But putting out that guide, I'm sure, has been very helpful to a lot of people because that's what they really wanted. They didn't want someone who's going to pontificate and spit out article numbers and stuff like that to try to show not really educated individuals about GDPR but tell me a little bit about the book and why you did it.

Jamal Ahmed  44:47

Yeah, so it goes back to the challenges I had when working with clients. So the challenges that clients were telling me about and the people who I mentor they come in to me. If I'm not getting buying from the business, no one listens to me. And what you'll find is that it's a very common approach where they either don't understand something. So when they don't understand something, they ignore it, or they do nothing. And that's what happens when you try and regurgitate the law. And when you look at the GDPR, businesses struggle to understand what it actually means because it's written in such a way where it's got so much legalese that even if people can read the words, they're still unclear of what does that mean, I have to go and put in place, what does that mean, I have to go and action. So what I've done is I've taken the GDPR. And I've essentially translated it into easy-peasy language. So now it's clear to anyone who reads it. Okay, this is what the law is asking you to do, or this is what the law requires you to do. This is your obligation. So now, businesses have so much more understanding of what they need to do. So it helps businesses to understand what their responsibilities are. But it also helps privacy professionals, especially the lawyers who are used to talking in legalese, like you talk from one layer to another one, and there's no problem. But as a lawyer, the moment you start engaging with the business, then everything stops seems to get difficult. So how do lawyers get by? And how do you be able to explain what's required to do without turning people off without people ignoring you, without feeling like you don't have credibility, and it's being able to translate the GDPR requirements in a language that anyone can understand? And a lot of people struggle to simplify things. So that's one of the things I'm actually very gifted that why don't I create this easy peasy guide, so anyone can pick it up, whether they're previously professional professionals, or whether they're a business executive or even you're somebody who is just training people, and they will understand exactly what the regulation requires.

Debbie Reynolds  46:41

And also, one thing that I found with the GDPR, people are so afraid of it. Tell them oh, it doesn't even apply to you. Not everything in the GDPR may apply to your business. So don't be so upset about oh, my God, or 99 articles; I'm like, not everything in the GDPR will apply to you. So don't be so uptight about it.

Jamal Ahmed  47:07

Yeah, it's because people look at the GDPR. Like, okay, this is something that's come up; let me have a look at it. And then they get intimidated by the number of pages that they have to read through. And they've read maybe the first two pages, and it just doesn't make any sense to them. So people give up. And this is the thing that you'd be surprised at. And this is probably not something that I want to admit. But the number of privacy professionals that I've spoken to have told me that they haven't even read the GDPR. And yet they want a job as a privacy professional, from the top to your company. And I'm like, what stopped you from reading? Like, oh, I tried it, but it didn't make any sense. So I put it down. Now, I need to help people who are coming from because how can anyone go wouldn't be a privacy professional data protection professional helping companies to comply with GDPR regulations when they haven't even read the thing or when they don't even understand what they read? And so, for me, it was about this is something that's super important. Privacy professionals need to understand what's required; you need to be able to explain that businesses who don't have the budget, or who think that they can figure things out themselves, or who just don't have the time to go through all that there should be an easy reference by just like a dictionary thesaurus that you have in desk, I see this GDPR guide being on your desk, and then just explains very easily Oh, this is what the law says. That makes sense. Now I know what I need to do about it. It's meant to make everyone's life so much easier.

Debbie Reynolds  48:25

Yeah, a lot of people don't read these laws; it's staggering to me, it's like how can you know? Maybe they've seen a summary from someone and do not really understand how that applies to them. And, you know, so these guides are very important. But I do recommend that people read things. I want to draw something out of a novel thing that I do. And I recommend that people do. This goes against the grain of what anybody thinks. And this is about the Data directive that preceded the GDPR. I highly recommend that people read the Data Directive, even though is no longer a law in the EU. Because between 1995 and 2018, when the Data Directive came out, a lot of other countries took to the Data Directive. And they created their laws based on the Data Directive. So even when the GDPR came out, there are still a lot of countries or a lot of jurisdictions that follow that framework of a Data directive. So if you understand that, and there are countries that have passed data protection laws between those times, it's probably more alive. As with the Data directive and the GDPR, places like the Philippines, for example, what are your thoughts?

Jamal Ahmed  50:07

Yeah, so I'm a big fan of understanding how we've got to where we are. And for me, I would go even further, I would say we should go back to the OECD guidelines and have a look at that first because that's the kind of principles that we saw. And the thing is, a lot of people think of lots of laws that are coming out around the world are actually flowing with GDPR. They're not; they might be inspired by the GDPR. Actually, if you go and trace it back to the OECD guidelines, you can find every single article has been traced back to one of those principles in the OECD guidelines. So if you understand the OECD guidance, and you see how regulations of all law have progressed, it puts you in a place where you can have this really holistic understanding where you will see things fitting is not about the law says this. So I have to do that, like that's a very tunnel vision approach, we have to take the holistic approach is what was the purpose of this law? Why was this law even introduced? What is it trying to protect? The directive was brilliant. Why did we need to regulate it? Because it was so Higgledy Piggledy, there was no consistency. And that's the only reason we came up with the regulation, and it was a little bit outdated as well. So we saw, you know, things have moved on, and we need to replace it. But the main problem was Europe wants people to feel comfortable sharing their data; when I go to the shop, they don't want me to think twice about using my credit card. They don't want me to think twice about entering my details on our website, they don't want me to think twice about giving my data, individuals will only give up their data if they feel confident that it's going to be protected, and it's going to be kept private, and that they have some control over it. The only way to make people comfortable doing that is to reassure them that wherever this data goes in Europe or even the world now, it's going to be treated with the same level of protection and the same level of privacy. And you've got nothing to worry about. When you have nothing to worry about, you're more likely to share that data. So that's where the regulation came in. And what they recognized, or what European leaders recognized, is data is such a valuable commodity. And for us to have economic prosperity, we need to tap into this data. And the way to do that is to get people to share that they took my opening. So let's bring in regulation. I know right now, if I go to a supermarket in the UK and I use my credit card, I'm not worried about it. I know it's only kept secure, even if the processing is taking place somewhere in another part of the world. I'm not too worried about it. The problem with the directive was you still had international data sharing, but it wasn't applied the same way. So if I went to a shop here in the UK, and I use my credit card, and they had a processor, let's say, for example, in Romania, I might be concerned about that because, under the directive, it wasn't implemented very well in Romania. And there were high amounts of fraudulent activity being committed from having European data. They're not Romania. But these are the facts. So how do we overcome that? How do we allow businesses to work anywhere they want to? We need to find a way where people actually are comfortable giving up their data. And that's where the regulations and you have to look at, okay, where did all of this start to begin with? And in Europe, we talked about the European Convention on Human Rights. Where did that come from? Well, it came from the United Declaration of Human Rights. How did that come about? Well, it came about too far too late; we had to wait for a government, a country, a leader to wipe 6 million people off the face of the earth just because they chose to believe something just because they didn't agree with his ideology, to then say, hey, people should actually have rights to freedom of speech and privacy, and all the other basic rights that we've discovered, it shouldn't have taken that many people to lose their life, that many families to be torn apart, that many businesses to be ripped apart for us to be able to appreciate this, right. And the thing that frustrates me a lot is when you have people who are saying, hey, I want to be a privacy professional, I want to do this, and I want to do that. And they fail to appreciate just how important the work that we're about to embark on isn't really derived from reading the directive, reading the things that came before that is instrumental in having that holistic, wider picture.

Debbie Reynolds  54:21

I agree. I love that. Thank you for sharing the information. If it were the world, according to you t, and we did everything you said, what would be your wish for privacy anywhere in the world, whether that be technology, law, regulation, or human behavior? What are your thoughts?

Jamal Ahmed  54:43

Oh, wow, if I had one wish, I would wish that everyone would just treat other people the way they want to be treated themselves if we were just able to achieve that. I don't think we would need laws. I don't think we need regulations. I don't think we need to leave He's technology. And we can just let people be as creative as they want. Because we know everyone is going to feed everyone else with the same level of respect they would like to be treated.

Debbie Reynolds  55:11

I love that. I agree with that. Yeah, we said the golden rule; actually, that's talked about. I agree with that. Well, thank you so much for joining me; it's been a pleasure. As always, I'm always thrilled. Whenever I see you comment on LinkedIn, I'm always smiling. And that's why something really nice to say, you really give us a lot of positivity and a lot of good energy. And, you know, I'm so thrilled with the things that you share. And being a personal color, you know, I'm just so proud of what you've done.

Jamal Ahmed  55:49

Thank you so much. And you've been very kind and supportive to me over the years. And I just want to acknowledge I truly appreciate what keeps me going and add a few. And when we talk about being a person, like, let me show you this one story. So early on, when I was trying to get into Data Privacy when I was only in, it used to be dominated by white, middle-class, middle-aged lawyers. And I remember I went to this event; it wasn't one trustee event, and what they used to do, they used to host like for breakfast, and then you would go through into where the seminar was being delivered. And as I was going through it, there was this gentleman who matches what I'd just described; he took off his coat and gave it to me. Because he thought I clearly was part of the catering team there being a brown, young Asian dude, I have no interest in data protection as part of the catering team. And so that was like, you know, there's lots of challenges we face here in the UK, too. And especially being a person of color, and you're not being a lawyer, you can imagine the kind of fun I've had to deal with. As I've been progressing through my career, it got to a stage where you know, people then start feeling threatened. And they come at you with all sorts of random and weird and disgusting things. But you know what? You got to fight through that. And these are the things that you have to use to drive use the difficulty that you have to use difficulty to propel yourself. And the thing is, I've been quite open about my losses; I've lost three children. And what people fail to appreciate is when you've been able to bury a child the first time, the second time, and the third time, there isn't anything you can say or do to me that I can't take on, but I can't ignore that I can't laugh about anyone that's been through that everything else is material to them. And one of the reasons that give me that resilience to go on by also is the reason I'm so passionate about helping people from all over the world to become great privacy professionals, become the best that they can be, and demonstrate, Hey, you don't have to be a certain color, certain, maybe a certain class or from a certain part of the world, to be part of the privacy elite, you can actually be anyone anywhere, you just have to have the bright passion, the right strategies, and be devoted to delivering excellence. And you can do that. And that's why we, you know, the private police academy, we have scholarships for people to come and train with us from India, from Africa, from Latin America. And we don't actually make any money. Sometimes it cost me some money to bring those people in. But that's me giving back. That's me knowing that we're making a difference. That's me knowing that there's people in different parts of the world now who are going to be able to go on and inspire other people who are going to be passing those lessons. And this is our contribution, our gift back to the world. And it makes me so happy when I get the messages even on LinkedIn; you'll see people posting celebrating the wins and successes, people of color people from backgrounds that you wouldn't expect to be thriving in Data Privacy. But yeah, so things are changing. And one of the things that I say to people here in the UK is that door used to be sharp for black and minority ethnic people here in the UK when it came to doing legal work and Data Privacy. I've got to open the door, and I've jammed it open, but I'm just generally open. I put dynamite in a blew down the door wide open, and I built an escalator, and now you just have to press the button, and take you right to the top. That's what we call the pro sports academy.

Debbie Reynolds  59:23

You're doing an excellent job; you're succeeding at that. I tell people don't let that be a barrier. Let those experiences be something that motivates you to be able to move forward and be even better than you have in the past in what you have, what you are, and what you can do.

Jamal Ahmed  59:43

Yeah, the other thing with that is, if you are mediocre, if you're just an average, then when people are comparing you to other people, it's gonna come down to the color of your skin. It's going to come down to the way you speak because there is nothing that makes you stand out from everyone else. So people go, and there's nothing. It's not anyone who thought people are naturally like people like them. Right? That's just naturally inbuilt into people. So there isn't really anything that we can do about people's nature. But what you have to understand is the moment you become outstanding, the moment you are excellent, the moment you differentiate yourself from the rest of the competition, it doesn't matter what color your skin is, it doesn't matter if you have a funny accent, it doesn't matter how short or tall you are, it doesn't matter how you identify as a male or a female, or any Now none of those things matter. All people see is this amazing value that you bring and then want you on the team; they want you to run their project, and they want you to give them the answers. So that's why I always get people to strive for excellence. Because when you're mediocre, when you're average, all of these things will play a part in it. And if you are not like the majority, there is going to be some bias that will go to be a detriment. But the way to overcome all of that is not even to even think about it. Just think about how can I add more value than anyone else. How can I stack my value? So I'm outstanding, and all of the other stuff goes away.

Debbie Reynolds  1:01:16

That's fantastic. Executive advice. Man, I agree with that. Excellence is the key. Definitely, well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate all that you've shared. And as you know, I'm a cheerleader in your corner, always looking to see what you're doing. And just happy to see you sharing and giving us so much to think about, so many things to help us improve ourselves and anything that we're doing. So thank you so much.

Jamal Ahmed  1:01:47

Thank you for having me, Debbie. And you know, it wouldn't be fair if I just took that compliment and left; a lot of what you see me doing is because people like you have been inspiring me to do that. You've been in this industry, you've been in the scene, you've been in this game a lot longer than I have. And it's actually people like you, and it's us specifically, who have inspired me to say, Hey, get out of your comfort zone, put some videos out there, show the world you have some valuable insight to give go and put that value in. So I want to thank you, not just on my behalf. But on behalf of all of my mentees who look up to you, who love you, who want to get on your podcasts that you've been speaking to who secretly you know, following everything you're doing because you're super inspiring. And I just want to say thank you so much for leading the way because if you weren't leading the way for us, then we would be lost. And we see you; we see your example we get your support. And I just want to say thank you so much; keep doing the great work. You're impacting more people than you even have a clue about

Debbie Reynolds  1:02:46

Oh, you're going to make me cry. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. So yeah,We'll talk soon I'm sure. We always crisscross on LinkedIn and different chat groups. But thank you so much.  This is such a valuable episode. I'm sure everyone will love it as much as I do.

Jamal Ahmed  1:03:06

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbie Reynolds  1:03:09

You're welcome. Happy to have you on the show.