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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

consent, data, privacy, people, businesses, customers, organizations, banking, manage, banks, blockchain, companies, platforms, suppose, services, individual, trust, incrementally, incremental, talking

SPEAKERS

Wayne Lloyd, Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me "The Data Diva". This is "The Data Talks" Privacy podcast, where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know right now. I have a special guest on the show today. We have Wayne Lloyd, who is the CEO and founder of Smarter Contracts. Wayne and I had the pleasure of having a chat a few weeks ago, and I thought, oh my goodness, will he be a great person to have on the show you have such a great perspective about privacy and sort of kind of what's going on in the world and how you are addressing that with your company. So without further ado, why don't you start by sort of telling me how you sort of ended up here, you know, what was your journey into privacy as sort of why you moved into this area?

Wayne Lloyd  01:13

Yeah, sure. Thanks a lot for having me. First of all, it's um, you know, we listen to your podcasts a lot. So I really appreciate you inviting us to the show. And yeah, so in terms of my journey into privacy. So my but I'm not, I'm not a privacy lawyer. My background isn't in privacy. I'm not a lawyer. So my background is pretty much in financial services. So I've worked for consultancies, I've worked for banks, and providing, consultancy and, you know, other credit risk underwriting services for secured and unsecured products. But I suppose my career really started ten years ago when I moved to London. And I started working with banks in emerging markets that were using, I suppose, large monolithic treasury management systems. And what I found was that these organizations were responding to the needs of their customers based on the speed at which these central intermediaries could change or improve the technology that they were using. And it didn't really make much sense to me. And therefore, I started looking at new ways of improving customer experiences. And that led me to blockchain. And I think from blockchain, you know, really, I found my calling, as it were. And then when I started talking to banks about this back in sort of 2015 2016, it was still quite a nascent thing to discuss. It still is quite a nascent thing for people to discuss.

Debbie Reynolds  02:58

So we've had some pretty we had a really interesting conversation about, you know, smarter contracts, consent management, sort of the nature of consent, and why consent is really interesting. And so you, you all have a patent-pending consent management platform, but I will really be interested in talking initially about sort of your journey into, you know, becoming the founder or CEO, Smart Contracts are sort of, you know, what was your trajectory, your career and what were the needs to receive? We decided to start the company.

Wayne Lloyd  03:37

Sure. Yeah. So, the, yeah, my, my route into privacy was quite protracted. So my background has always been in financial services. I've worked for banks, I've worked for consultancies. But it was around ten years ago when I started working for a consultancy that provided services to banks that were using. I suppose centralized treasury management systems and banking platforms. And I was lucky enough to be able to work with banks in particularly in emerging economies. And what I was able to see was that they were given these, I suppose, these centralized technology platforms, and the support that they were given when they were utilizing these platforms was was sometimes quite a bit inappropriate for the way in which they needed to manage their customers’ expectations. And I just couldn't really understand how, you know, this was being allowed to happen. So I started looking for new and emerging technologies that I felt could improve these customer experiences. And then I really got into blockchain. And I discovered that in 2015, and that was, that was really my calling. So and when I started talking to banks about blockchain back then, it was You know, people looked at me kind of funny what, what you're talking about. So I needed to, I need to understand how to really think about how we could sell solutions using blockchain to organizations. And I joined an organization that specialized in digital business transformation. And they were brilliant because they really helped me frame how the technology could be used to improve the way in which businesses provided services to their end-users. And, as I learned more about digital business transformation, what I began to realize was that, in a lot of cases, digital business transformation and become almost a segue into how can I make customers spend money with me faster. And so they were going from A to B, but they weren't actually thinking about the impact that these new digital experiences would have on their end-users if their data was hacked, or if, you know if the worst things were to happen. And obviously, we can see that they do. So it was when I layered blockchain on top of this, and I started thinking about privacy and security, and, you know, creating trust in those digital experiences that we really started getting into privacy, and yeah, establish smart contracts. And then we really started looking at Open Data initiatives. And then, we started looking at the role that consent plays in the sharing of data. And out of that, we've developed pulse. And that's where we are with it today. That's how I got that long, long way. But um, yeah, I hope that answers the question.

Debbie Reynolds  06:41

Yeah, totally. Totally. I think it's interesting that you have a financial background because I think when we chatted before, you talked about managing data, like money. Yeah. So to me, this is a concept I think is really fascinating. Because, you know, when I think about it, you know, I like that analogy a lot. Because, you know, it's about, you know, the fact that individuals own their data, right, just like they own their money. And then, when they give their data to someone else, they expect them to be a good steward with their data. So it shouldn't be, you know, like, if you were to go to a bank, and then you put money in a bank, and then you ask them, so you know, what's my, can I see my account balance or whatever? And they say, well, we don't know where the money is, you know, you'd be really upset. So I like that analogy. So tell me a little bit about your idea about how kind of the data like money. Does the analogy go for you?

Wayne Lloyd  07:52

Yes, so yeah, so when we were designing pulse, we felt that we needed to do it. From the point of view of a customer, you know, I'm not, I don't have a background in privacy, and I'm not a lawyer. But what I am is a customer, and I understand how I expect my data to be managed and looked after. And so what we did with Pulse, you know, we built it from the point of view of the customer, first with empathy at the heart of the user experiences that we were designing. And then we thought about the technology second, but what we did know as we started that journey is that, you know, blockchain can take back-office processes and make them front and center to the user experience. And when you think about how that technology can unlock certain user experiences, you then start to realize and recognize just how much more beautiful privacy can be for individuals, if you start thinking about how to manage, or how to allow the individual to manage their expectations around how their data should be managed. So as we were looking at, you know, existing financial service providers, and we started thinking about the value of data. And we started to recognize, well, look, our data is worth more often than the money that we spend. But there are no effective ways of managing that data in the same way that we can manage our cash. And for organizations that are managing privacy and expectations of the end-users. We believe that managing an individual's appetite for privacy and control over that data should be a real-time exercise. If you break somebody's trust, it can't be something that you manage. After the Trust has been broken, because the Trust has been broken, there's no repairing that, or if you do, it's going to take a long time. So what we wanted to do wanted to make sure that the individual had the opportunity to set their trust parameters controlled by them so they could manage it in the same way that they manage that cash. And I think it's a real USP for, you know, for financial service providers now. So, you know, we've done our own research, there's a lot of research that's out there, but, you know, the research that we've done, and we found, you know, 42% of the people that we've spoken to, and, you know, they changed their bank, if they provided better privacy tools, and, and of the, you know, the percent left 30%. Me, everybody starts in talking about these amazing interactive privacy tools that they can use, people will still start to manage privacy more. And then that's layered on top where 75% of the people we spoke to have complete control over their data. So there's a shift now to be enabled to manage, I think, data in the same way that you know, you manage your money.

Debbie Reynolds  10:56

Well, I agree, and then to, you know, I like to talk about something, and I've been talking about this for years, which is kind of the rise of the individual, where businesses before, were, you know, once they got data, it sort of went all over the place. And so, and they thought of it as if, you know, they own the data, in a way they sort of did own data, right, because they didn't have these additional obligations to the individual. So now that, you know, all around the world, countries and different, you know, states and municipalities, you know, cities are passing these regulations that are saying, you know, individuals have these rights, businesses have these obligations to sort of let them know. And so it's sort of turning business on his head because I think when, especially when, when, when there was talk about what was happening with the GDPR, in Europe, especially in the US, between 2016 and 2018. So that was between the time that GDPR, which became a law, and then the time it went into full enforcement, right, in May 2018. People sort of some companies thought about sort of what was happening with the EU and GDPR, though Well, this is something that, you know, is Canada's new obligation, this is a new regulation. And we kind of tack things on to it, perhaps right to whatever our business process was, but because privacy is so fundamental is important that you know, companies, they really need to change the way that they operate, and so is a huge is a more vast change. And so I think that as companies are seeing over the years, how these things are playing out. That, you know, privacy isn't like something to sprinkle on top of whatever you're doing. It definitely is a fundamental change in the way that you operate. What are your thoughts?

Wayne Lloyd  13:09

No, I agree. And, look, it's not. It's not going to happen overnight, I think, first and foremost, and there needs to be an understanding that privacy sits on a scale. Right, so what's privacy for somebody else is something for the next person. But I think what we're finding, especially the academic studies that we're reading, and I've enjoyed reading over the past two and a bit years, is, I think privacy defined means control that that is what privacy really fundamentally means. So I have control over my data. And therefore, I can set the parameters around how much privacy or control I feel I should have. But I think for organizations, and it's quite, it's quite a paradox right now, if you think about it, particularly within the UK, we've got a lot of open data initiatives, open energy, open banking, open finance, we're in a situation wherein order to for those initiatives to thrive, we want people to share more of their data. At a point in time when people are less certain about sharing their data than ever before. It's quite a paradox. And these organizations are going to be sharing their data within these open data initiatives. But right now, they're not even open businesses, you know, do you think about the silos within those within those organizations. They're not sharing data between themselves effectively, but yet, they're now going to have to share their data with third parties. And they've got some money to that, and they've got to be competitive. And I think what businesses need to do is I think they need to start thinking about themselves as a business and how they share data across silos first. And then focus on delivery by running, I suppose, pilots before they scale. So they're gonna have to do it incrementally, they can't just do a big bang, you know, and just everything will be okay. I think it's just going to take time for them to sort of address it. And well, actually,

Debbie Reynolds  15:22

Let me back up a bit. So you mentioned something that I think probably deserves a bit more scrutiny, which is sort of open the Open Banking, Open Everything sort of initiative. So we don't have that here in the US. I did a video about this several months ago about what was happening in Open Banking in, in the EU, and also in India. So can you talk a little bit just at a high level, you know, what is kind of open banking or the open initiatives that require data sharing? And what are you seeing in those areas again?

Wayne Lloyd  16:05

Yeah, sure. So um, I suppose the obviously the European revised Payment Services directive PSD two came about in October 2015. It mandated the opening up of banking data to third-party providers. And this made it possible for third-party providers to directly access transaction data or create payments on behalf of customers. And it was done on the basis of driving greater competition in financial markets. And that would improve outcomes for customers by saving in cash, giving them more personalized products and services. And in August 2016, the CMA or the competition and markets authority. They mandated that the UK's nine largest retail banks should fund an organization with the Create a spoke to common standards and interfaces for PSD to open banking access and that those banks should implement those standards. And the open banking implementation entity which was set up to implement those standards has done an amazing job of doing that. They're close to finalizing those sets. And well, they are big, just in the last one, they did the open banking standards. And they maintain a directory of the compliant applications. So apps can authenticate the application to account servicing payment service providers or banks. And so that that that, in essence, is what's happened and how it's been implemented. And as I suppose, in January 2021, there were more than 3 million customers, the number of customers is growing, the number of API calls is growing. And the number of products and services and innovations is just exciting. It's brilliant to be part of it. And to see how people are using open banking to tailor products and services for individuals. And but one of the things that obviously, in order to transfer that data, you need to obviously give consent to that data to be shared. And you need to do it. And you need to ensure that the customer understands why they're sharing their data and what they get in return for that. And at the moment, there are there's not a common dashboard if you like. So there are different standards for consent management within open banking at this moment in time. And we think it's such a fundamental part of it, which is why we wrote a white paper on, you know, raising the concerns that we have about these different standards of consent management within open banking, because what we don't want within open banking is if you think about cookies, as an example, and you've got multiple different providers of cookie dashboards, you don't know where your cookies are going, how you manage them, there's not a single way of managing your cookie consent, you just kind of feel out of control. And with open banking, what we want is for people to be confident to share their banking and transaction data. And to be comfortable that these open data initiatives will give them, you know, the type of Personalized Products and services that they value. I

Debbie Reynolds  19:32

Love your I love what you talked about in terms of open banking. So we know it's, it is I thought it was very ambitious and I was happy to see you know that you sort of going in this direction because it is difficult, right where businesses have been very siloed before and you know, a lot of the smaller players weren't able to sort of getting in on the action and be able to access customer so that A lot of complicated data issues and consent issues. So I'm glad to see that these initiatives are going forward. And you know, it's being done in a way, and you guys like to set your you wrote, you know, a paper about the sort of, you know, you know, consent and managing, you know, that process being able to protect the rights of individuals. I love to talk a bit about let's talk about consent, right? This consent in general. So consent, to me, is very interesting and is complicated. And I'm seeing how companies are kind of playing around with kind of what consent means. So, you know, as we know, on with GDPR, consent is a legal basis, right for data transfer. And so in the US what we're seeing, we're seeing states pass laws, well, let me back up in the US a lot of what companies would do in the past about data or with people's data, all they had to do was really kind of notify them. So you know, whether it was a fine or a letter, or they got the mail, who I hey, we're gonna do this with your data. So what we're seeing in the US, we're seeing a lot of we're seeing state, some states pass more comprehensive data privacy legislation, where those laws are calling for consent, this is kind of a new thing, you know, in the US is very different. So consent is very, you know, consent, as I said, and GDPR is kind of a legal basis. So we're kind of feeling our way around. You know, we so right now in the US, we have kind of a notice slash consent thing going on. So it seems like the regulations are going towards consent now, but it's not national. So we don't have a national, you know, data privacy or data protection. Law right now that covers kind of consumer, so we're kind of getting these bit dribs and drabs of regulations. Anyway, I think the thing that interests me or the thing is I feel is complex about consent is that consent doesn't necessarily, in my view, cover or address whether the famous someone is consenting to is in their best interest? So, I will, you know, because you work in a space, you know, and you know, a lot about consent, you know, what, just give me your take on it. That's what I think.

Wayne Lloyd  22:55

No, I couldn't agree more. And consent, databases of consent, are databases of dirty data. That's essentially what consent databases are today, you know, for the reasons that we just spoke about when we're talking about cookies, and, you know, out of control, you know, in terms of the number of dashboards that you're using, and where that data goes, and but yeah, you're completely right, there is a problem that needs to be addressed, which is people need to understand what they're saying yes to, or what they're saying no to. And we recognize this as a very early stage, that smart contracts, and where we're kind of settlements in building an additional module to the core pulse platform, which really addresses how people are saying yes or no to the questions that they're being asked. And, and, yeah, you know, that's, that's my view on it, it's a problem. It's a problem that needs to be solved. And the sooner it's solved, the better.

Debbie Reynolds  24:04

Yeah, I feel like some companies are using consent against people. So younger getting them to consent, because, you know, like, let's say, I'm at a web site, I want to do a transaction on something, and then I get all these, you know, do you consent, you know, yes, yes, yes. And then, you know, maybe I want to get through my transaction faster. And so not consenting makes slows down or creates more friction. So people say yes, or people don't really understand what they're saying yes to, and then they're sorry, later, or they're upset later. That okay. I didn't understand that when I said yes to this thing. You know, this is what was the result. So, you know, to me, that's the problem, and then to there, there is a natural, asymmetrical relationship, in my opinion, between customers and businesses? So, you know, they're, you know, when businesses ask for data, especially in a consent type of regime, you know, they can ask for more and give less. Right. So it's not an even exchange under any circumstances. What are your thoughts?

Wayne Lloyd  25:27

Yeah, no. Yeah. I agree. I think this is where this is where building consent management with the customer at the hearts of the designers, that is the really important thing. So there are two ways that you can think about the customers in the process of asking for consent. You can design something, and think about how you can, for example, know the customer and create a trade-off between accessing the information and just clicking Yes, to just get this pop up out the way for as an example, or you can really think about how you can extract user experiences to drive trust, that they'll always want to come back to work, you know, come back and engage with your products. And I think if you, you know, the things that annoy me, for example, when I when I'm looking at cookies, which is not the core of our business, Cookie concerns, but if you look at websites, when you go on, there always seem to be a fraction of a second that these pop-ups come up, just as you start reading these, you know, articles that you want to read, or before you interact with the services that you're after. And it obviously creates a trade-off, which is, I'll just click Yes, that will remove itself, and I'll read the article. And that's a good customer experience for the people you want your data bricks of bad customer experience for the person who's just given their data away. And even you know, today, I was talking to a member of the team who's looking at one cookie pop up. And there was, I think, for just one transaction, there were 278 data aggregators at the back end of it that had an individual data privacy policy that related to each individual organization. So it's not just that you give it away once to one organization. You give it away 278 times when you say, Yes, in some instances, the way that we've built and designed the platform ourselves is to make sure that it's not a free for all with your data. And therefore your you'd be more it's impossible to configure the platform in a way that is not compliant. And you'll be marked down against it if you do. Bye, bye. Bye, smarter contracts. So it's, it's a different way. It's turning it on its head, I suppose.

Debbie Reynolds  27:51

Yeah, yeah. I love to talk about we have a conversation about this. I did a video a bit ago about incremental consent. Yeah. So you had kind of about your take on it was really fascinating. So it actually helped me a lot because it was something that I was seeing, and I decided to kind of do this video about it. And people really love a video talking about it. Yeah, tell me your thoughts about incremental consent are out Well, actually, before that, asked me to explain what I think it is, and then tell me whether I'm right or wrong. So I was just kind of seeing how companies are asking for consent for teeny small things. And they're asking for consent more often. So sometimes, so there actually, there's like two schools of thoughts about that. So one is, you know, the reason why companies are asking for consent incrementally is that maybe they're developing a product, and there's only at a certain point, and then they decide they want to ask consent, they gather more data. So as you know, to me, that's kind of a legitimate way that companies will ask for consent. Right. But then the other flip side of this, what I was really talking about was, I feel like companies in some ways are asking for consent incrementally. Because if they told you the whole deal about what they want to do with your data, you probably just say no. So in a way, they're kind of is, to me is like a building block of consent in a way. So it's like, okay, consent to this one thing. And then we move to the next thing, and we move to the next thing to me. It's harder makes it harder for the person to withdraw consent because now it's kind of this building block of things that they've agreed to what are your thoughts?

Wayne Lloyd  29:45

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think, when we spoke about it last time, Debbie, I think the incremental consent analogy that I saw discussed was over time, what I have said yes to, for example, on social media platforms, has changed incrementally. And, for example, if you post your photo on some social media platforms, you don't own your photos anymore because the consents that you've given incrementally have loosened the control that you have over your own personal items. And they've been taken away from you. And this is really the driving force of what we see within open banking, we, what we don't want is to see incremental consents that loosen your control over your transaction and banking data, you know, that if there is always we need this for this, and that's ultimately what happens, the customer becomes out of control with what they're saying, Yes, do they kind of lose track of it. And I think over time, it lessens the privacy that they have. And as we go into these open data initiatives, and you're giving away more and more of your personal and private information, it's just, you know, particularly for vulnerable people who really need protection they need, you know, they really need privacy, I think they need to have more control over how their data is being used. And I think as you say, you just build up more and more incremental consents, it just kind of, you know, could have the opposite effect. It also frustrates the user experience. I don't know if you've got the, you know, the very famous search engine, every time I seem to search for something, now, they want to just reconfirm that I'm happy to not give them access to my data, which is just rubbish. You know, it just ruins the user experience. And I think these organizations that are thinking about this as a way of maybe, you know, potentially loosening people's control by sort of doing this incremental consent process. You know, I think people are voting with their feet now. And everybody knows about to go and their success, you know, people will move to privacy-enhancing platforms, if the option is that people have moved away from, you know, Whatsapp to telegram and signal because they're concerned about how their data is being shared and news, you know, people using the brave browser, people are voting with their feet. And what they're showing is that it's really easy to move away from organizations that demonstrate an inability to value your privacy over to organizations that provide privacy-enhancing products and services that are as easy to use as your existing applications or desktop platforms, they will move there is no loyalty there, they will move instantly. So to answer your question about your incremental concern, I do see it as a problem. And I do you think it's something that needs to be addressed? And it's definitely very much in the thinking about, you know, how we manage that. But yeah, I do think that it again, if it's if incremental consent is used as a way of loosening privacy, then ultimately, I think it will be the businesses that lose this time around.

Debbie Reynolds  33:03

Yeah, I guess consent, in general, troubles me for many different reasons. But two probably big reasons are, you know, I saw on a website called the FIDO Alliance, which is fast ID outlines but tries to get people to log on and more secure ways that have less friction. They're saying, like how the average person has like 90 logins and passwords, so accounts, right, so the massive amount of accounts that people have the maximum amount of questions that they asked us, to me, it's just, you can't really manage all that, you know, I think one individual can't really effectively No one's going in the 90 accounts, like reconfiguring their privacy stuff. So being able to do it in a way where say, like, I always say, having a person have a bank, like BIA, you know, their data is like a bank right? of their own. And then the companies come to them and ask for consent. And that way, they can see individuals can see what they've consented to and what they haven't, and then they can change those controls. And then also, and this is another thing that troubles me in this is kind of about contracts, right? So when you're consenting to things, you're sort of entering many little contracts with companies about what you do, what they're gonna do with your data. And then ultimately, something may happen that you didn't you don't like, right, and you're like, I can't believe that you know, when I read what out, you know, if you read the privacy policy, or if you read, you know, a consent thing or whatever, you didn't really comprehend that what you say yes, to resulted in what the company ultimately do with your data. And so then a sort of a thing like well, you should have read these 80 pages, you know, terms and conditions. So to me, it's like your, you know, many companies are kind of throwing the throwing all the responsibility like putting your hands up to the customer. And to me, that's very much problematic. I don't think, you know, I don't think that's the way things should go. It can't be like, oh, my God, I can't believe they did this with my data. They're like, oh. You should read these 80 pages of stuff before, you know. Yeah.

Wayne Lloyd  35:33

I couldn't agree more, I think. And that's the problem that we kind of see is, especially when it comes to managing privacy, like, like you mentioned, if you've got so many different bits of data that are so disparate, it's it gets impossible to manage. This is one of the reasons why we've built policies in the way that we have is an opportunity for individuals to interact with businesses that can provide them the opportunity to aggregate their data into a single platform. Now, obviously, that's going to take time. There's a network effect that has to happen with that. But the way in which it's been structured, you know, allows for an organization, you know, it, let's say, for example, in a customer has four or five different accounts with one organization, I'd rather interact with my privacy across all of those in a single interface, and I would this is a phone number for a loan, this is a phone number for a credit card. I mean, why do you need to do that it's the same organization. You should manage your privacy within that organization across all products in a single way. But you know, some businesses don't facilitate that. So, yeah, that's where I would, is that answer your question? Sorry.

Debbie Reynolds  36:47

Oh, yeah, totally, totally. Right. I think you know, and, thankfully, in the EU, you guys have GDPR. And, you know, things that the say that you're supposed to, you know, write privacy policies and things like that a plain language where people really understand where we don't really have laws like that here. In the US, so I mean, to me, these policies get longer and longer and more complex. And then, you know, obviously, some companies, you know, like, for example, apple, if we look at their privacy policy is very simple, right. And it's done purposely that way. Because they do want people to understand, so for me, you know, I always say I like to make privacy, a business advantage, you know, this is a huge advantage to businesses, if they can be more transparent and create less friction, at the same time, with customers. And, you know, you want customers to be informed, or you shouldn't want customers to be uniform. Because that's how you really build trust. So you know, you don't want to do this gotcha thing where, oh, my goodness, well, I tricked this person, and they take, you know, give me this consent. And then I did this, this crazy thing that I probably shouldn't have done with their data, and then we're gonna litigate for years and years a year. It's like, that's, yeah, that's a good, good way to go forward. And like you said, you know, customers are voting with their feet, and they want more transparency. And so that's, you know, I say, transparency is the way of the future because you're not transparent people aren't going to trust you.

Wayne Lloyd  38:27

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's really interesting, the point you make, you know, we, in the US, you don't quite have the same laws, as over here, in Europe, for example. But all businesses need trust to build businesses, you know, people need to it was the laws might not be there, people understand that their data is being used in ways that they're not happy with. And it shouldn't be the fact that there's nothing there to regulate. It shouldn't mean that you think that it's okay. To mistreat customers in that way. You've got to manage their expectations. And, and I think, you know, the growth of privacy tech, the growth of privacy companies is proof that whether the laws are there or not, trust is the essence of business. Like, if you don't have it, you can't grow. And that's, that's, you know, they've got to get things in place to make sure that they demonstrate that they care about their customers and their data. And you know how they use it.

Debbie Reynolds  39:20

Yeah, I think the mind shift has to change, or businesses think complying with privacy is like a tax on their business where it's actually something that's going to improve their bottom line because they'll be more attractive to customers.

Wayne Lloyd  39:37

Yeah, no, that's like we've obviously we've spoken to a lot of privacy officers. And I think one of the things you know, this is, this is where I was talking about at the start. You know, the beautiful thing about blockchain is it takes back-office processes. It moves it front and center to the user experience, and privacy for me is one of those things. Front of the user journey because you have to click these boxes. And it's still considered well sits there. It's still the back office. I think some of the privacy officers that we have spoken to have missions because they're unable to make the sales teams recognize the revenue that privacy can help them unlock. Just by creating trust, it doesn't need to be revenue because and it shouldn't be revenue because they're doing things in an unethical way. It's the acknowledgment that ethical behaviors create trust and create more brand comfort. And then it's making people see that link between how I operate as a business and determines what my revenue looks like, at the end of the day. So yeah, we're definitely seeing that.

Debbie Reynolds  40:49

All right, Wayne. So it was the world according to Wayne, and we did everything with you said, What would be your wish for privacy, Data Privacy anywhere in the world? Where it's the law technology about consumers? Or humans? What are your thoughts?

Wayne Lloyd  41:09

I think for me, I, what I'd like to see is a world where businesses don't need regulations and are encouraged to manage the trust of their customers. That's where I'd like to see the world. It shouldn't need a regulator to sell you. You shouldn't do this. And you shouldn't do that with the data. I know you need to. Because there are some people who see the opportunities, but I think putting trust at the hearts, putting customers at the heart of the business, but really meaning it and using, you know, platforms like polls, and other platforms that, you know, other organizations have built-in at the heart of their business would be a good way of a chunk of sort of making that happen, I think. Yeah.

Debbie Reynolds  41:57

I love that. I love that. I think I think you're totally right. I think you're totally right. I think there's an ethical gap here. Right. So not personally, not all laws are ethical, but the ethics in, you know, what's not written on paper or what's not in regulation about what a company decides they want to be like, you know, in their culture and what they do. I think you're right. I think companies that sort of address that ethical issue will be more successful in the future. Because yes, say, you know, we're going to take a stand, you know, even without regulation, and we're going to kind of operate in a certain way to be transparent with the individual. And this and that will make them more successful.

Wayne Lloyd  42:49

Yeah, I agree. And I think that when you see, you know, sort of the cats out the bag now, you know, there are people who believe that the world needs to be rebuilt, you know, you've got web 3.0, you've got D-FI, you've got people who are just going to challenge the way that these existing journeys are conducted. And I think for businesses, they need to recognize if they don't act fast, the barriers to entry for, I suppose challenger organizations, in their industries, is they've never been lower. And I think, you know, if this is not addressed sooner, rather than later, I think they'll, they'll start to lose market share and trust. And that's not a good place to be.

Debbie Reynolds  43:31

I agree. I agree. Well, this has been a really interesting episode. I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about this concept of something that I like to talk about a lot. I think it's just a huge issue. And I'm glad that you guys are, you know, attacking that, that challenge and sort of making things more transparent. And I also love the texture. You do have kind of that banking background. So can you there are parallels there are lessons to be learned there about transparency and about kind of customer experience. Yeah, thank you very much.

Wayne Lloyd  44:06

Really appreciate you having me on that on the show. Debbie. This is great. This is wonderful.

Debbie Reynolds  44:12

So I'll talk to you soon. Thank you very much.