44:25

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, data, conversations, podcast, community, important, smart cities, technology, potholes, council, city, road, privacy, talk, smart, build, communities, improve, involved, decisions

SPEAKERS

Debbie Reynolds, Zoe Eather

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own, and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds, they call me "The Data Diva". This is "The Data Diva Talks" Privacy podcast where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world, with information that businesses need to know now. So I have a very special guest on the show today, her name is Zoe Eather. She is the CEO of My Smart Community in Australia. She is also the host of the Smart Community podcast. Now, I have to give you some stats about Zoe, which is amazing. So Zoe was kind enough to reach out to me a couple years ago, I was on her podcast, actually twice. So this is interesting. So you and I did a podcast before COVID. And, and one after. So it's kind of interesting sort of compare and contrast what life was like before and after, it's hard to remember what life was like before that. Also, you have your very successful podcast, I consider you the fairy godmother of podcasting, because I got so much. I learned so much from you and what you've done. So right now you say you're up to 141 episodes for doing it for a number of years. And you're up to 125,000 downloads. That's quite an accomplishment.

Zoe Eather  01:39

Thank you. Yes, we've been going for yes, over three and a half years now. And yeah, it's been consistently just building, which is exciting. And I mean, I couldn't have done it without my team. You know, I don't do everything myself. I leave the professional podcasting, production and everything to the professionals. So now I do the recordings with the people that I find or reach out to me on the podcast, and just have a whole bunch of really interesting conversations, which I really, really love. And I guess for me, the podcast is all about smart communities. And so I've got so many different people on the podcast. So it's really exciting to have you on the podcast, not once, but twice. And I'm sure you'll come on again, if I convince you to come back on again, a bit later on, when we can continue to, I guess talk about this conversation how, how far it's come where you know which way we've gone. Because, you know, it's very much matured in the last three years, if not, you know, more than that. But even in the last three years that we've been doing the podcast, I can back, listen to episode one and Episode 100, or 240, we're having very different conversations still on the same theme that it's about people enabled by technology and data. But I think we're having more mature conversations, because we've been able to build and grow.

Debbie Reynolds  03:04

Yeah, it's amazing. So you've been kind enough to invite me to do things like present on panels, and we did, you know, really cool things with Smart Cities. I am into, I do a lot of work with companies that are doing emerging technology. So some of that hits on Smart Cities, but also Smart Cities are about people, as we talked about. One thing that I would love to chat about and get your perspective, again, this kind of before and after COVID I feel like Smart Cities were always important, but I feel like COVID has sort of changed the conversation and maybe put more focus on Smart Cities just because people are living in different ways. What are your thoughts?

Zoe Eather  03:56

Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's kind of two ways. Some things that weren't so important. But we thought were really important. So maybe like, the way it was worded, or the technology that we were going to buy or that, you know, maybe a city or whatever was going to invest in when COVID here, they weren't, actually, we can't do that right now, it's not an essential service, rightly or wrongly, it's not an essential service. So we actually have to focus in on you know, getting people working from home, making sure they're safe, all those type of things. And, and also the digital systems that would support that outcome. So I think it's become less of a focus on shiny widgets, which is great and more of a focus on or what can smart community thinking? So not just the latest technology, but can we think differently about this? Can we, you know, get a different approach? Can we bring other people in with different backgrounds, professional backgrounds and experiences to actually build an outcome that will work for our community? And can we do it in an agile way? So it's quick, because we can't wait, particularly with COVID. We couldn't wait until you know, the virus decided to go away, we had to act immediately and get this stuff running. Now, some things worked. Well, some things didn't work. Well, we learned from some things, we continue to shift and change. The other thing that I've seen is people are now more comfortable to share their voice and their opinion in the conversation as well. And I think that has been really great for some things and other things. Maybe we've, you know, trailed off off into different, I guess avenues. But I think in the Smart City and Smart Community space, we've seen a big shift into, we need this digital transformation, or we need this new system, or we need this data driven decision making, because it's essential to provide the services that we need for the city and the community.

Debbie Reynolds  05:57

Yeah, yeah. I would like like to back up a bit. Because I found this, you're fascinating. And I adore you and your team, and I thought things you guys do and you're like, you know, social media on steroids, I can just only hope to be a fraction of that. I think I'd be successful. But I would love for you to talk about sort of your journey. your background is so fascinating, and sort of how you became interested in the Smart Cities and Smart Communities space. You know, I, I actually had the pleasure to attend your 100,000 download session. And even though you and I talked to each other, there are things about your background, I didn't know that I thought was really fascinating. So would you share a bit about your trajectory to where you are now?

Zoe Eather  06:50

Sure thing. So I'm a traditional engineer, I used to be a traditional engineer, whatever that means. civil and environmental engineer, I was really good at math and science at school. So I decided, well, I'll be an engineer, because one of the guy that was above me at school, he did engineering and didn't know what it was. But he was a smart guy. So I decided to do engineering as well. I grew up in Weimar, so really small town in Queensland, and went to Brisbane, went to Uni and realized that it was about people and helping people. Well, that's how I saw it, that I could help people, I could travel, I could do all these things with engineering. Now, when I left Uni, I had a job with Transport and Main Roads and State Government. And I worked in hydraulics. But I really wanted to work out on site. So I ended up in construction. But I really want to work overseas. And I didn't think that would be possible with with the Queensland Government. Because you know, it's a very kind of rare opportunity, if it's a Queensland based, you know, government agency, but kind of, as soon as that thought entered my head, the Director General, so the biggest boss within Transport and Main Roads, send out an email, he'd been to South Korea, and he was really excited about the technology over there. He went for like a road Congress back in the day when we could travel. And he wants to send one of his engineers over there. So I was lucky enough to apply for that and get that. So I lived in South Korea for three months. And that's when I learned about Smart Cities. And the technology that people were working on right now. And the things that were happening right now in in Korea, and also looking at other things like construction methodologies, different ways of thinking, different ways of working, and just being in a completely different place where the culture is so different. So after that, I got really excited about Smart Cities, some people would say obsessed, some of my friends would say that, and I will talk to anyone, anyone about it, like, oh, what are we doing here in Australia? You know, what's the potential and, and I would yeah, take time off work, go to conferences, do all these things. And, and then I realized that I wanted to do more in this space. And I want to talk to more people. So my good friend, Ellen, who you've met, and the producer of the Smart Queen podcast, she had her own podcast and was doing podcast production. I said what do you recommend? Should I start a podcast? And of course, she's biased. Of course she said, Yes. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start this podcast because one, I want to talk to people that I couldn't just, you know, immediately see in my local area. So I could talk to people all around the world, but also given the opportunity to really, I guess, build my knowledge at the same time as giving other people a voice and a platform to be able to do that. So I decided that I was going to start a podcast now. I was working for the government at the time, and unfortunately, I wasn't able to have a podcast and be a public servant at the same time. So I left my good secure government job to start a podcast that didn't pay me any money. But I thought it was a good idea at the time. And I mean, it has been. And so I started a consultancy at the same time, so I could earn a living and build the podcast. And so that was, yeah, over three and a half years ago now. And yeah, going strong ever since. Yeah, and around the same time as well. It was about April 2018, which was a busy month, I realized, I also applied for my Winston Churchill fellowship. And I found out later that year that I got that as well. So I was then able to travel around the world and do more things in the space. And when we were able to travel, so 2019, and really build that knowledge from yeah, I guess from all around the world looking at transportation, in particular, because that was my background, but how does that actually fit into our communities? So yeah, it was a it's quite a wild ride. And now, and obviously, with COVID, last year, it was, it was a bit interesting, but like we like we were talking about earlier, people then really saw that, oh, this stuff is really important, this digital transformation stuff, you know, using tech for good. And using data to make decisions and all that type of stuff. And so it's actually been, yeah, I've been getting lots of different inquiries about what what people can do in this space, and from a wide range of people from local government to, you know, community groups and bodies, to, you know, working with state government as well.

Debbie Reynolds  11:50

Yeah, that's great. I love it. I love that story. What what are you seeing? So when I think about Smart Communities or smart cities, obviously, I think about technology, but a city can be smart without technology, but it is about people and how they interact, how they live right in the city. What are some concerns that you have, as a relates to kind of smart city projects that sort of touch on kind of the privacy of people?

Zoe Eather  12:27

Yeah, absolutely. It's such a huge topic and a huge issue. And I've really loved having you and other people like Nicole Stephenson on the podcast, because I get to learn so much from from the experts. But for me, it's, it is really about the, the importance of not just collecting everything, because we can, and no one said anything, so let's just do it. And I the needs to know basis for me is really key. Because in Smart Communities and Smart Cities, there are so many different applications that we could have. So you can you know, if we had an hour podcast, we couldn't list all of the things that you could possibly do in this space. So it's really important to focus in if we're talking about, say, local government, local, city government or regional government, focusing on those pain points that they're trying to solve. First, because if we start with a list of technologies, then we'll end up with things that we don't need, we'll be collecting data that we don't need. And potentially, there'll be privacy issues, because we may not have the right expertise involved, too, to be able to say, Yes, we need that. And no, we don't need that. So focusing in on on those pain points, and then working out what those solutions can be. And giving people getting enough people around the table to ask questions that have been uncomfortable so that we can have some we can actually have those discussions about what it is we do and don't need. I think that's really important. And something that doesn't get done enough, because we just assume, oh, well, if we can, you know, the saying you know it just because we can, should we and I think ethical decision making which obviously involves privacy is something that we are talking more and more about, which is which is which is really great. However, there are you know, lots of things that are happening that maybe are now trying to go back because we've realized that we've given too much away or that people have taken too much. And so it will be a really interesting time moving forward as to where that goes. But particularly around Smart Cities for me like some of the applications don't involve personal data. A lot of them don't involve personal data. I read a really good article a long while we got I can't remember where I read it or what it was but if I find it I'll send you the link so you can put it in the show notes. But it was really around know what what does the city know about me. What do I know about the city? So all the applications are actually sharing information about the city to make it easier for me, as an individual or a community member in the city to make decisions about what I want to do improve my quality of life, access to services, I need, you know, be able to find the products and services and things that I that I want open up opportunities for education for employment, all those type of things. So rather than thinking, well, how much can the city find out about me as an individual, and then serve me that way, it's actually the other way around, where you offer all of these city services, and you know, information about the city. So then me as an individual, can make better decisions for myself, but also that the city can make better decisions around the whole community. So I like that distinction, because a lot of the time we think, Oh, well, how much can we find out about an individual? So then we can, you know, make things more efficient, more effective, maybe for that individual, but maybe for the government as well, you know, to make things better, reduce resources, time, quality, increase quality, hopefully, but reduce costs. But actually, if we think about the other way, then we can start to have different conversations, which are, well, what information can I share as the city with the individual and the people in my community? Yeah, I think there's a gap and I'm gonna talk a bit about technology. And it's something that I'm seeing where a company, let's say a company does something like a red light camera, or something. And they sell it to a municipality or a city or something like that. And what they do is, they tell you about all the benefits, right? of this, but they don't talk about the harm. And then when people implement this system, you know, it's sort of no one's responsibility, in some way in some places to to assess what the harm is. And then what happens is that it gets implemented and the person you know, they write the check, and the people who saw you the thing, they're, they're off, you know, the sunset, and then the municipality is kind of left with this thing to try to sort it out. And maybe they aren't the right people to figure out what's kind of the most ethical way to use it. And I'm talking about ethics, because not all places have laws that address this. And so, let's say, company selling the product, they want to sell it to as many people as possible, that give you all these features, some of them may may or may not be either legal or ethical in your place. And then it's sort of left on kind of the municipalities sort of sort that out. And a lot of times it doesn't get sorted out until they are the harm that occurs this, that's so egregious that it catches the attention of someone. So I feel like there's kind of an ethical gap here in this process. What what are your thoughts? Yeah, I totally agree. And I've been doing a massive data science on finished at the end of this year, which is great. The reason I mentioned that is because I realized how much bias there is in data, and data analysis and things. So all this data that we're collecting from these new technologies and systems and processes, if we don't have that lens, that this is not just numbers, this is data about people, then we can't have those proper conversations. And that's why things have gone to the way that they've gone in a lot of cases where we are questioning the was this ethical ever were the questions asked, ever. And now we're asking them and and i think i think it was on Nicole's podcast. Someone was talking about putting the tube, the toothpaste back in the tube. You know, it's much more difficult. So yeah, I do think there's a big gap. And I think, to try and address that gap, and obviously, it's a it's a complex thing. It's like trying to solve, yeah, we won't solve it overnight. We won't. It won't be a one size fits all solution, but it's about having the right people at the table. the right people at the table are people that have those data skills that understand bias. So there's there's a number of different people, people like yourself in privacy, and realizing how important these things are. These aren't just an add on to conflict. Oh, great. We've got somebody in to be able to do this. On now. We're sweet. It's an evolving process as well because what may have been ethical maybe even 10 years ago, is not now because we've realized the harm that it's caused, and a lot of the time to minority groups that are already doing a tough and you know, we're causing more and more pain and, and harm. So I think having those conversations early designing that in from the start, but again, we won't, it won't be right the whole time. But then how do we get those right people involved to be able to have those conversations. And I think the community is a really important one as well, the community aren't going to understand absolutely everything about the technical detail of you know, this, versus this camera versus that camera or that type of thing, which is why we need to speak in their language, so that they can understand. And not to say that they, they, it's not that they are less than or don't understand our talk or whatever, it's just that we need to speak in a way that people will be able to really take in the information and make a decision about it and not just be confused, because you know, you and I can talk about terminology and things. It's not that we're super smart, or whatever, but we're in the space. So we can we can have those conversations. Whereas the smartest people will actually shift their language to the audience that they're talking to. So then they can absorb it and take it in. So yeah, I do think there's a big gap. And I think that there will continue to be one until we start to push in and close. And I think the way you do that, is by having more people at the decision making table that aren't our typical, you know, typical CEOs or general managers or whatever, people with different skill sets, but also the different experiences talk a lot about if we are making a decision about something Who are the people with the most at stake if we don't get this right, and how do they have their voice at the table? And I think people get a bit worried about having, you know, community or people that don't understand potentially or, or aren't informed in inverted commas. But we want those questions to be asked, we want if it doesn't make sense, we want to know that early on, not later down the track where it's too, too late. Again, in inverted commas too late to do anything meaningful about it. So I think that's a really key point. But there's not a, you know, a silver bullet to fix that that gap that exists. But it's a real one.

Debbie Reynolds  22:18

Yeah, yeah. And one other thing that concerns me is sort of a kind of a data skewing thing. Meaning, let's say, for example, you have a city like Chicago, where they have real like cameras in certain areas and not others. So you're collecting data in some areas and not others. And then you take the data, and you try to extrapolate and make some broader point. But basically, it makes it seem like the absence of the other data that never got collected, is ignored, I guess, in some way.

Zoe Eather  22:57

Yeah. Yeah. So basically, we're saying like, oh, well, in this suburb, or this, you know, suburbs out what you call them in? Yeah. So in this other oh, people are always, you know, going through red lights, and isn't this terrible or whatever? The people here, always, you know, they they flout the rules, whatever. But actually, and that might be, you know, say in a in an area where there's, there's other issues or whatever, whereas this affluent community, or they don't have any red light cameras, so of course, you don't have data on that, which exactly what you're talking about, they're such a huge issue. And like, that's an example where we can point to it right? We can point that, okay, well, this obviously isn't going to be a representative sample. However, people still analyze that data, and they still make assumptions about it. And then they report it, even if they say are this it is noted that this is only from this area, and blah, blah, blah. And I see that a lot. I see that a lot in, you know, in books, and all sorts of things where they go, oh, this is only a sample of, you know, 20 people, but I'm gonna tell you the results anyway. And I think that's a huge issue. And something that, particularly with this, the data science side of things that, again, we don't have a solution that will suit everything, but we need to have more conversations about it. And again, I think the way you do that is having more people with different backgrounds and professional backgrounds. You know, I'm coming from an engineering background where, you know, rigor is really important, where we look at standards, we look at quality, all those types of things. You know, we don't want the bridge to fall down. And I don't take that same analogy to data. I don't want this analysis to fall down if somebody you know, picks and prod data, and they should be able to they should be able to question and I should be able to answer those things. And I should be able to say I made this decision because now that doesn't say that my biases aren't already inherently in there because they're my biases. They're going to be no matter what I do about it, I can correct for some of those, but sometimes that might lead to overcorrection, or whatever the case may be. So I think it's a huge issue. I think by getting more and more people in there to kind of go all in questioning that to ask why that's happened, increase that transparency of how we came to, you know, come up with this answer, then I think we can start to have those better conversations. But it's such a big issue. And, and huge now, particularly, that anybody can go online, find a piece of software that will feed in some data, and they will tell them something that they can put into a nice report, and they can publish, you know, on on their Facebook page or on on LinkedIn, or whatever the case may be. Not say that we can't do those things. But it is a really interesting one. And something I talked to him about, as well, that diminishing of expertise. because anybody can can publish things. So there's good and bad in that, you know, I always talk about people, more people getting involved in the conversation. So people might be like, well, hang on, I'm sorry, you're telling everyone to get in the conversation. But now you're saying, you know, we don't want everything published. But I think there's a there's a difference between getting involved in a conversation and starting to ask questions and and working out what your what what part of the conversation you want to contribute to, and really then thinking about the expertise that goes into the scientific part of the analysis of data and all those type of things. But even with that analysis, realizing that there are biases, there are biases that go into that. So there's just confused, everybody, probably there's lots of lots of complexity in there. But we need more people to question it exactly like we're just doing right now. So then we can start to have more conversations, because hopefully, if someone listening to this can then go, ah, that's right. This happened in another case that I looked at, what can I do to correct that? And, for example, that case will be well, we need to collect a representative a representative example? No, we start that, again, a random sample, and that represents the whole of that city or region or whatever the case may be.

Debbie Reynolds  27:16

Excellent, excellent. So what's going on right now, in the Smart City space that concerns you the most?

Zoe Eather  27:26

It's a big question. I think there's a real there's still a lot of overwhelm of technology, and a lot of confusion around what is what works and what doesn't work. And, and that's okay, we can we can continue to move through that. But what concerns me now is that we aren't yet talking about the return on investment. And I think that return on investment won't necessarily be dollars in the bank. But it may be, you know, it may be economic growth, it may be improved quality of life, it may be less, you know, health issues, depending on what the use cases. So I'd like to see more, more of this return on investment. And then if there is a, you know, I guess a gap, then how do we address that. And it's not necessarily that we keep doing the same thing, but maybe we shift and change things a little bit as well. So for example, to be able to do that, you need to first have a baseline. So what were we measuring before? And what then can we measure to say whether we that improved or went down or stayed the same? So working with a cCuncil in Queensland around the asset management process, using AI, so using machine learning to pick up potholes, for example? So one of my favorite examples, because, one, I love pavements. I'm an engineer and too it's  a really practical example that everyone knows what a pothole is. Everyone doesn't like potholes. We don't want them on our roads. But what can we do to improve that it's also a problem that every Council in the world has. So we looked at partnering together with a local startup that had the technology to be able to do that. We we put we helped the council put the system in place the council did a lot of a lot of I guess analysis on what they are measuring now. So how much it cost them now how many potholes were in the system now, etc, etc. And then what we could what was the potential that we could improve that by? They've got now got, I think it's over 18 months of data, it might be a bit more than that now, and they have seen this improvement. So they've been able to say well, now we have more potholes in the system, so that there's the morale Listening more, they just wander the system, for example, but also that the data is now up to date, because they have installed these cameras, which pick up the potholes automatically on garbage trucks. So every week, they go around as they do. Most streets, of course, they won't necessarily capture anything, but we started with the streets. And they now have data that's only a week old. Whereas before, I will do a yearly asset scan. And you know, that would be once you know, upon a moment in time, but it actually takes six to nine months for that data to get into the system. So the data is out of date before you even can look at it and decide what to do with it. So it's really important that we start thinking about, well, what are we doing now. So we can say, Well, this is the this is the business as usual, this is what's happening now. So that we can measure that impact. So with that Council, they're also not just assets, but they've created this data set, right, they can be used for so many other things. And not just sorry, not just maintenance, but now it can be looked at to use for their capital works programs, because roads, they cost a lot of money. And if you can even save 5% across, you know, particularly in Australia, in America as well, the length of roads, it can be enormous. So now they're looking at, well, how can we use this automated data that we've collected, it's there, we've got this amazing data set that's up to date. That's the huge really big, this is big data, right, and also has no personal identifiable characteristics as well. So just the road, the road, will have been asked the road, but actually in the road doesn't mind that we know how many potholes it has. But then you can actually start to pinpoint and target certain areas. So rather than just looking at, oh, well, this road is 20 years old. So we're going to, we will redo it. Whereas this roads only five years old, but maybe this road has more traffic on it, and more trucks on it, and it's getting potholes all the time. So it actually be a better investment to, you know, go for this five year old road, rather than the 20 year old road, but we may not have that data, whereas now we have that data to be able to make further decisions. So we can save time, money, and resources. But also, we're increasing the safety of the road network as well and improving the service that the council can provide through technology. And it's not super fancy. It's not, you know, it's it's available now. And it continues to be improved as the machine learns. And, and it's a really, I guess, good use case of where we've been able to work with the council. And, you know, I was only involved in the very beginning, it's now you know, this project that different people have come in and been involved because it's got so many different players in the space, but you really need that counsel to go, Okay, this is a this is a pain point, this is issue that we're having, and be willing to try something a bit different because, you know, there wasn't many, there wasn't really a good case study to be able to go, Oh, this is exactly what it's going to do. So it is innovation, it is different. It may fail and not work as well. But then actually being able to measure that, then we can go well, actually, yeah, it is working. And can we do this with it now, maybe we can do this. So it takes a lot of courage for counsel to be able to do that. Because you know, we know, the scrutiny that they're under. And but also when we can actually show that return on investment, then you've got a better case. So, you know, you want the data behind the data as well. Right?

Debbie Reynolds  33:35

Yeah, exactly. That's a great example. And so are you saying so let's say, in situations where you need data from individuals, are you seeing municipalities having problems getting data from individuals to get insights? Because I don't know some way I feel like maybe a trust issue?

Zoe Eather  34:00

Yeah, I think there's a, there's definitely a building of trust that needs to happen, particularly if they're going to do something different. I mean, at the moment, we have, like this base level of, excuse me, what we can what we do provide to our Councils at this stage, and we expect that they'll protect that, but they're not going to be sharing that with anybody else. Like you said, there's there are laws that prevent that. But also, if we don't trust a Council to be able to do that, even if there are laws in place or the government, then yeah, we do have some serious issues. So I think a lot of it comes down to building trust is not this like tick and flick approach. But it's actually showing that okay, well, we've we've done this, we said we're like doing what you say you're going to do and not doing something else that people might not, that might not know what's happening with the data or whatever. Or, you know, you said you're going to do this but doing this, what's happening to that erosion of trust is really a key one. I guess for me in particularly in the Smart Community space and Smart City space, where if Councils are merged, going on this journey, it's not their own journey, it's a journey with the community. So we might be able to build a, you know, strategy or a framework or an action plan, or, or whatever the case might be. But then we need to bring in the community. Because if you're just doing this by yourself that then, you know, it's like a black box of, oh, what am I going to do with all this technology, or this data or this whatever, but actually, the council, they're just trying they, and I wholeheartedly believe that, particularly local governments, they're trying to improve services for their community, they're trying to improve efficiencies, so then they can save time, money and resources on things that people might not care about, but a really important like, waste and roads, and you're improving services and that type of thing, if they can save money on those things, and they can use that money to spend money on things that people really do care about, like events, and, you know, improved services, that beyond people's expectations of what they could get from a council, that they feel like a about, you know, valued customer in this the exchange, not just a, you know, a member talking to their local government, which may be a, it may be a less than desirable experience from the past in history. But actually, if they move into this, oh, well, I feel like a valued customer, within my region and within my community. So I think those things are really important, particularly when we talk about like community groups being able to access things that they need and that type of thing. I think that if we can build that trust together, and the way you do that is through transparency and having conversations and you won't get everything right all the time. But making sure you can admit that. But I can say that, but it's not super easy, right? Otherwise, everyone would be doing it. And there's so much scrutiny that councils are under. So I think it is a to and fro process with the community and the council's and realizing that we are trying to achieve the same goal, the same outcome, which is that we have better communities a better quality of life, for our communities moving forward, no matter what that community looks like. Because will they'll all look different.

Debbie Reynolds  37:32

I think transparency is a thread that runs through kind of this, your work and my work as well. So I think it's hard because so much of things that governments or companies have done up to this point, especially as it relates to data, especially of companies who felt like they didn't have any legal obligation to share information, you know, in order to do the job needs to be done, you know, they may need they don't they need that trust of individuals. So I think that transparency is kind of a key to the future. And then that trust is really vital.

Zoe Eather  38:14

Yeah, and I think I'm on that, like on that same note, it's in the future, particularly tech companies, and I guess even Councils and Governments. That will be the selling point, right, privacy will become the commodity or the the value that we want. And that's what we're looking for. I mean, it's even starting to look at, you know, people started to talk about it now, wasn't a conversation, what, maybe five years ago, but now when I'm buying a product, I want to know, I want to know what they're going to do with my data. And the ones that tell me I'm more likely to buy from, and the ones that don't, or that are silent on the issue I may think twice about. So I think that transparency and privacy will become that, that that key that consumers want. So we'll see more and more of it. Hopefully, it's not just a, like, shouldn't just be a, you know, token thing, or are we'll do this because it's on trend, but we'll do it because it's really important. And I think things that, you know, have seemed on trend back in the day, and now really important things like, you know, equality, and, you know, bringing your back in the day, it was like, oh, everyone's talking about this. Why are we talking about now but they're the you know, we're standing on, you know, the foundations that people built back in the day where it was different to do these things. It wasn't, you know, wasn't business as usual. So we're standing on those foundations to be able to have these voices and share this and so we'll just continue that that foundation will just continue to build so hopefully we can have those, you know, more equal, stronger, you know, hearing connection and stronger communities with human connection. That that's really important and you know, technology, data aren't the answers for all those things. But if we can use those in a way, because they're here, whether we like it or not, we can't get rid of them, right that they're here. And if we did get rid of them, you know, if all of a sudden all the technology in the world, you know, imploded, then humans wouldn't really be here either, because we rely on it so heavily for, for medical, for communication for, you know, everything. So I think that we need to really get, get, get, get serious or get more people involved in this. So then we can build those things that we want rather than just going oh, well, technology rk that's, you know, all that fancy stuff that doesn't involve me, what does it involves all of us? And so I think that's really key. And that we don't, that smart cities is not led by big tech companies, and you know, the latest widgets, it's actually about, well, what are the real problems that we can solve for real people within our communities?

Debbie Reynolds  40:56

Right, I agree. I agree. If it were the world, according to Zoe, and we did everything that you said, What will be your wish for privacy anywhere in the world? Whether it's human technology law? Or your thoughts?

Zoe Eather  41:13

Really good question. For me, I want people to feel informed. So I want because at the moment, even when I talk to, you know, even just different people or to people in the community, and even in the technology space, we don't feel informed enough to make decisions. And that's a real problem. So in this Smart Community space, I want people to feel like they've got enough information about their digital footprint, their data footprint, they know where their data is, they know that they've given access to it. And you know, they can actually map out the web of all the pieces of data. And then they can retract things, the needs to know basis is really important. Because if they don't need it, and it's not benefiting me, or the member of the community, as an individual, and potentially maybe even causing harm, then we need to be able to pull that back in. Now, it doesn't mean that I need to then know everything about data and privacy and whatever else because that it, not every member of the community will. But we need to know enough. So then we can make those informed decisions so that I can go oh, yeah, I know that I've given my information, my location information to, to Uber or whatever, so they can pick me up. But actually, they don't, it's not on all the time. I know that because I can actually see that. Or I've given it to this, this company for a certain period of time. And then now I've removed that, because they don't need that. And I don't need that service anymore. And I know that I'm exchanging these things. Because I think we're under estimating the value of our data. And I think that will become something that we that will Yeah, it will be this other currency in the future. And what that looks like will be really interesting, because it's not necessarily going they'll there'll be some bad things, and there'll be some good things. And there'll be some things that we're not quite sure about yet. So I think that will be a really interesting time to move forward. But being able to know where our dollar is, is a really key one for me and how how we can be feel like we're in control of that.

Debbie Reynolds  43:28

Yeah, that's a great answer. I love that. I love it. I would expect no less from Zoe. Definitely. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm so glad you are finally able to get you on my show. Oh, we got so many other things together. But I think the audience will be really delighted to hear your point of view about Smart Cities and Smart Communities.

Zoe Eather  43:51

Thank you for having me, Debbie. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, I look forward to our next conversation, wherever it is and whatever it may be about.

Debbie Reynolds  43:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'll talk to you soon. Bye.